Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ...

Added by IR4T4 over 6 years ago

Since RC1 we have a real benefit of the mod code and with RC2 we are reaching the point to think more about additional mod features.

Personally I don’t want to add new weapons or skills (except throwing knives and the adding the footkick optionally) to keep the game balanced and let the mod stay slim.

A user & XP management should be done with Lua. Same for custom commands and additional gimmicks like HP left view etc.

Forcing client cvars? ... double jump? (bleehh) ... constructible XP sharing? ... gametype map voting? ...

... well these are just some thoughts - discussion is appreciated!


Replies (92)

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by RaFaL over 6 years ago

Forcing cvars will be needed (done)
Gametype for map moviting would be cool (done)

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Dragonji over 6 years ago

I’d say keep it as vanilla as possible...

IR4T4 wrote:

adding the footkick optionally

ET ain’t no RtCW

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Radegast over 6 years ago

Adding double jump (dismissed) would go against everything I imagine Legacy mod to become.

I also don’t like the idea of adding new weapons except foot kicking (filed) and throwing knifes (filed) and even those I would like to be optional. Maybe in the future somebody will come up with a new weapon that would be exceptionally good and fit well in the game, but nothing comes up to mind right now (done - we did add the ka-bar, bazooka and granatwerfer). However, I am not against somewhat improving current skills or adding new skills if they have some purpose. For example, adding "melee" skill that would increase by knife attacks/foot kicking/falling on someone, etc.

I would like to delegate as many things as possible to Lua scripts and make any additions optional. I think this goes with the philosophy to keep the mod slim. I am sure there are cons to delegating a lot of stuff to Lua, so feel free to correct me.

map voting - yes (done)
constructible XP sharing - I am not sure (done)
forcing client cvars - this will be a necessity if we ever want Legacy to become mod for competitions like ETpro (done)

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by IR4T4 over 6 years ago

Radegast wrote:

forcing client cvars - this will be a necessity if we ever want Legacy to become mod for competitions like ETpro

I don’t know if there are enough players to have competitions and because of open source the client side can fake a lot. But we can add it ...

Dragonji wrote:

ET ain’t no RtCW

It will be an optional feature and no admin is forced to use it. ET isn’t RtCW but why not adding options to kill and team balance is still granted?

Map voting has been merged into legacy. What about visible leaning (done)?

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Saukko over 6 years ago

I think there should be models for leaning.
Also I was thinking one more thing to add. I am not sure if it does exist but I will try it out.

-*S

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by morsik over 6 years ago

++ for visible leaning. Also add possibility for shooting while leaning (dismissed) (of course customizable by cvar)

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Saukko over 6 years ago

morsik wrote:

++ for visible leaning. Also add possibility for shooting while leaning (of course customizable by cvar)

There could be added other new features for leaning aswell. I did a topic about it. Hope so it would be taken to consideration too.

-*S

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by IR4T4 over 6 years ago

Shooting while leaning isn’t a good idea in my eyes because the vertical axis of gun and view isn’t in sync. We might find solutions for this but for the gameplay it just results in campers having another advantage.

Saukko: I’m not sure about if there are any good 3p animations for your suggestions see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZm41UYz76Y ...

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Saukko over 6 years ago

IR4T4 wrote:

Shooting while leaning isn’t a good idea in my eyes because the vertical axis of gun and view isn’t in sync. We might find solutions for this but for the gameplay it just results in campers having another advantage.

Saukko: I’m not sure about if there are any good 3p animations for your suggestions see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZm41UYz76Y ...

To the first one, I have noticed that when you lean and try to throw a grenade it may hit to wall when you are behind it. Pretty annoying stuff endeed. And to the second one, I understand but I thought it should be possible because you can lean and throw a grenade at the same time, how you wouldn’t be able to throw airstrike aswell? Though that mine spotting while leaning would be something which could be new, but well I do not know how the coding stuff goes so I do not know the possibilities.

-*S

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Jacker over 6 years ago

IR4T4 wrote:

Radegast wrote:

forcing client cvars - this will be a necessity if we ever want Legacy to become mod for competitions like ETpro

I don’t know if there are enough players to have competitions and because of open source the client side can fake a lot. But we can add it ...

Just have to point out that the competitions is still rather active, 3on3s and 6on6s are still super easy to get (on any level of skill) and gamestv.org is full of active official ladder or cup games every single day. Dumping competitive people out just because the lack of proper mod support would be the worst route in my eyes, and by this i mean not implementing the most used functions of etpro and that way making it possible for clan games to use etlegacy&legacy mod.

Something like double jump should really be left to mods such as etrun or something which actually has a purpose for such an odd movement.

I am on the same lines as you that we shouldn’t add any weapons (don’t want another cod/brink/... clone with 10^6 guns which do basically the same thing but just sound different).

Something we should think about thou is ettv (in development) like support in the future as that would be the ultimate tool for show casing new functionality thru show matches (they used to do these for etpro and for maps that would be played competitively).

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by IR4T4 over 6 years ago

I would love to see different skinpacks (filed) used per map/team defined by admin or map.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Spyhawk about 6 years ago

Where to? Well.. I’d love to see the mod going towards anything but a gameplay that focus as much as possible on teamplay. Particularly, I’d love to see medics being more a support class by default like in ETQW (and soldier class having higher HP). I believe most people would not agree here, but having this (at least optionally) would be awesome.

I agree that the mod should be kept as slim as possible and that all non core features should be implemented in LUA. Also, will client side LUA support be implemented? I cannot think of useful client-side feature yet, but I guess there are many.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Dragonji about 6 years ago

A quote from NQ forums:

Sim wrote:

Dragonji wrote:

I don’t think legacy mod will ever replace ETPro as its development turned into "fun" path (many useless features for comp scene).

Dragonji, as you know, we want to give players ETPro-like experience and whatever our current mod status may be right now, we definitely do not target the "fun" category. Everyone is welcome to participate on sculpting the Legacy mod vision. I am genuinely interested in what you and other experienced players have to say and which features you dislike or desire.

This is a NQ and not ET:L forum, so I would appreciate if you could continue this discussion in here: http://www.etlegacy.com/boards/1/topics/177

At first I would like to say I haven’t participated in any ET tournaments nor cups or LANs. My only experiences come from hundreds of hours spent on scrimming with friends and friends of friends (which doesn’t mean these games were on 0 level if talking about skill). Also, I don’t want to talk for the whole ETPro community, just take the following opinion as my own opinion.

Why do I think legacy mod has already turned into "fun" way? There’s simply too much crap implemented already and more will come soon. Have you ever played any pro mod for another shooter game? Almost every single competitive mod tries to make the game as simple as possible while keeping vanilla feeling of the game if possible. Something I expect by a new competitive W:ET mod is simplicity (as ETPro is a simple mod) and bugfixes (so there’s a reason to drop ETPro). New features would be nice as well, of course but ONLY the ones which would be ANY useful in matches or public match-like configured servers. RtCW-like footkick? New weaps even if they would fit the game? Visible leaning AND a possibility to shoot while leaning? More skins...? Sorry but those sounds like anti W:ET competitive stuff. My point is that if you configure legacy to feel like NoQuarter, what happens when one of those "converts" goes to a real legacy ETPro-like server? Then they complain about how horrible that server is and how it doesn’t feel anything like the legacy server they just played on. I think this is a can of worms that needs to stay closed. Now you’ve got two servers who call themselves "legacy - ETPro-like feeling", yet have completely different look and feel. I think it diminishes the legacy brand as a competitive mod a bit to "dumb it down" to feel like NoQuarter. You come to expect a particular mod to have its own feel, and once you are able to over-configure a mod to basically resemble another MOD, the original loses all its character. I think people love ETPro the way it feels now.

I don’t want to hurt or offend anyone with the above, legacy mod may be a good pub mod over time but I just don’t see any future for it in competitive gaming, even if a lot of useless stuff would be just optional. Something like "legacypro", closed-source, might work out though but I believe another team would need to do the job on it.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Jacker about 6 years ago

Dragonji wrote:

A quote from NQ forums:

Sim wrote:

Dragonji wrote:

I don’t think legacy mod will ever replace ETPro as its development turned into "fun" path (many useless features for comp scene).

Dragonji, as you know, we want to give players ETPro-like experience and whatever our current mod status may be right now, we definitely do not target the "fun" category. Everyone is welcome to participate on sculpting the Legacy mod vision. I am genuinely interested in what you and other experienced players have to say and which features you dislike or desire.

This is a NQ and not ET:L forum, so I would appreciate if you could continue this discussion in here: http://www.etlegacy.com/boards/1/topics/177

At first I would like to say I haven’t participated in any ET tournaments nor cups or LANs. My only experiences come from hundreds of hours spent on scrimming with friends and friends of friends (which doesn’t mean these games were on 0 level if talking about skill). Also, I don’t want to talk for the whole ETPro community, just take the following opinion as my own opinion.

Why do I think legacy mod has already turned into "fun" way? There’s simply too much crap implemented already and more will come soon. Have you ever played any pro mod for another shooter game? Almost every single competitive mod tries to make the game as simple as possible while keeping vanilla feeling of the game if possible. Something I expect by a new competitive W:ET mod is simplicity (as ETPro is a simple mod) and bugfixes (so there’s a reason to drop ETPro). New features would be nice as well, of course but ONLY the ones which would be ANY useful in matches or public match-like configured servers. RtCW-like footkick? New weaps even if they would fit the game? Visible leaning AND a possibility to shoot while leaning? More skins...? Sorry but those sounds like anti W:ET competitive stuff. My point is that if you configure legacy to feel like NoQuarter, what happens when one of those "converts" goes to a real legacy ETPro-like server? Then they complain about how horrible that server is and how it doesn’t feel anything like the legacy server they just played on. I think this is a can of worms that needs to stay closed. Now you’ve got two servers who call themselves "legacy - ETPro-like feeling", yet have completely different look and feel. I think it diminishes the legacy brand as a competitive mod a bit to "dumb it down" to feel like NoQuarter. You come to expect a particular mod to have its own feel, and once you are able to over-configure a mod to basically resemble another MOD, the original loses all its character. I think people love ETPro the way it feels now.

I don’t want to hurt or offend anyone with the above, legacy mod may be a good pub mod over time but I just don’t see any future for it in competitive gaming, even if a lot of useless stuff would be just optional. Something like "legacypro", closed-source, might work out though but I believe another team would need to do the job on it.

As a side note etpro was/is in no way,shape or form a light mod. There is a lot of functionality that is not required for competition such as hud customization and many other stuff. Most of it is not even documented to the etpro site.

Some of the things you pointed out are not going to be implemented, this thread is only for throwing ideas around and cherry picking the good ones.

After playing the game at a comp level since the release and rtcw before that, nothing is as boring as the leaners defense tactic. For the last 5-6 years the supply:s last level defense has been at best a boring waiting game that if the two clans are on the same level the map will always end at double fullhold, and that is just one example. Visible leaning lessens camping or at least makes it harder (golrush 1st defence anyone?). I don’t like the idea of shooting while leaning myself either but visible leaning could add speed to the game.

Don’t take this as flame towards your comments or as an anger from a crazed developer, i just want tell you that we are working on making legacy as compatible with clan match play as possible while still offering some candy for public play. If you don’t like some feature of the mod or the client, write about it, open up the conversation.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Dragonji about 6 years ago

Jacker wrote:

As a side note etpro was/is in no way,shape or form a light mod. There is a lot of functionality that is not required for competition such as hud customization and many other stuff. Most of it is not even documented to the etpro site.

Lighter than the most of the pub mods, that’s for sure. HUD custimization is not a must indeed but is a very useful feature.

Jacker wrote:

After playing the game at a comp level since the release and rtcw before that, nothing is as boring as the leaners defense tactic. For the last 5-6 years the supply:s last level defense has been at best a boring waiting game that if the two clans are on the same level the map will always end at double fullhold, and that is just one example. Visible leaning lessens camping or at least makes it harder (golrush 1st defence anyone?). I don’t like the idea of shooting while leaning myself either but visible leaning could add speed to the game.

This would be a really drastic change for the game with almost dead pro scene.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Jacker about 6 years ago

Dragonji wrote:

Jacker wrote:

After playing the game at a comp level since the release and rtcw before that, nothing is as boring as the leaners defense tactic. For the last 5-6 years the supply:s last level defense has been at best a boring waiting game that if the two clans are on the same level the map will always end at double fullhold, and that is just one example. Visible leaning lessens camping or at least makes it harder (golrush 1st defence anyone?). I don’t like the idea of shooting while leaning myself either but visible leaning could add speed to the game.

This would be a really drastic change for the game with almost dead pro scene.

Wouldn’t say the pro scene is dead but sure it has been decreasing in size for a long time, but that’s only due to the game being old. We are working on bringing the game up to date in many technical aspects. One of the most important reasons why to update the renderer for instance is to get ET back to the headlines. ET:L gets attention = the scene will grow in both the comp and in the public side.
Besides summer is coming and the ET comp scene has always went to a hibernation of sorts during the holiday season. Visible leaning is a small change and in my point of view a logical fix, which was supposed to be in the original release but just never got done as the game got released half done by Splash Damage.

You must also understand that there were 2 main reasons why certain functionality never got implemented to the etpro mod, 1st being that functionality was added based on the things the devs felt like they needed, so there weren’t a lot of functionality that people actually asked for. 2nd was that the team was small and they got flamed a lot which in term made them also rather negative towards the community (remember the amount of flame the rtcw firerate cvar caused?).

Offering functionality is different than forcing functionality – Take that Gnome

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Spyhawk about 6 years ago

Jacker wrote:

Offering functionality is different than forcing functionality – Take that Gnome

Couldn’t agree more with you. ET:L mod should offer some flexibility, but still be delivered with decent default settings (and maybe even provide some "recommended" public/pro" settings if needed). You get the idea.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Radegast about 6 years ago

In short:

  • If we wanted to implement every cool feature we can think of, it would be better to start anew from ETPub source code.
  • There is no reason to replicate NoQuarter, because NoQuarter is still alive. IR4T4 took a break from it, but he never said he abandoned it.
  • ETPro is dead and has been for a long time. There is no alternative for it. We are not trying to be a clone of ETPro, but rather its evolution.

It is true that people will complain about the mod in any case, but Dragonji has some valid points. While I agree we should default to Pro settings but offer some additional flexibility, we shouldn’t bloat the code too much with unnecessary stuff. By that I mean unnecessary for our mod’s target player base. For example, I usually play on NoQuarter servers and I use foot kicks a lot, so I naturally wanted this feature implemented, but now I realize foot kicking would just not fit Legacy mod. This is why we are having this discussion right now - to throw some ideas around and decide which ones are worth keeping.

It seems we agree on a couple of things so far: visible leaning (shooting controlled by a cvar and turned off by default) and HUD customization.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Spyhawk about 6 years ago

Radegast wrote:

It seems we agree on a couple of things so far: visible leaning (shooting controlled by a cvar and turned off by default) and HUD customization.

Well, I don’t agree on shooting while leaning (even optionally)
Everything that would contribute to "improved" camping should stay out of the mod imho.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Dragonji about 6 years ago

Jacker wrote:

You must also understand that there were 2 main reasons why certain functionality never got implemented to the etpro mod, 1st being that functionality was added based on the things the devs felt like they needed, so there weren’t a lot of functionality that people actually asked for. 2nd was that the team was small and they got flamed a lot which in term made them also rather negative towards the community (remember the amount of flame the rtcw firerate cvar caused?).

I found out about ET after a few years of its premiere so I don’t know about origins of ETPro. But the example brought by you generally expresses that people around pro W:ET scene actually want to play W:ET competitively, not any other game "inside" W:ET.

Jacker wrote:

Offering functionality is different than forcing functionality – Take that Gnome

I generally answered this in my previous post:

Dragonji wrote:

My point is that if you configure legacy to feel like <insert_random_modname_here>, what happens when one of those "converts" goes to a real legacy ETPro-like server? Then they complain about how horrible that server is and how it doesn’t feel anything like the legacy server they just played on. I think this is a can of worms that needs to stay closed. Now you’ve got two servers who call themselves "legacy - ETPro-like comp feeling", yet have completely different look and feel. I think it diminishes the legacy brand as a competitive mod a bit to "dumb it down" to feel like <insert_random_modname_here> pub "fun" thing.

PS. I want to clarify one thing I’ve written in the previous post:

Dragonji wrote:

There’s simply too much crap implemented already and more will come soon.

I just took most of the ideas above as a 'work-in-progress’, that’s why I wrote already.
Offensive wasn’t intended, so I’m really sorry if anyone got hurt with the above.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Dragonji about 6 years ago

Radegast wrote:

  • ETPro is dead and has been for a long time. There is no alternative for it. We are not trying to be a clone of ETPro, but rather its evolution.

This sounds nice, I really hope legacy’s gonna be an ETPro evolution, not revolution.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Jacker about 6 years ago

Dragonji wrote:

Jacker wrote:

You must also understand that there were 2 main reasons why certain functionality never got implemented to the etpro mod, 1st being that functionality was added based on the things the devs felt like they needed, so there weren’t a lot of functionality that people actually asked for. 2nd was that the team was small and they got flamed a lot which in term made them also rather negative towards the community (remember the amount of flame the rtcw firerate cvar caused?).

I found out about ET after a few years of its premiere so I don’t know about origins of ETPro. But the example brought by you generally expresses that people around pro W:ET scene actually want to play W:ET competitively, not any other game "inside" W:ET.

Jacker wrote:

Offering functionality is different than forcing functionality – Take that Gnome

I generally answered this in my previous post:

Dragonji wrote:

My point is that if you configure legacy to feel like <insert_random_modname_here>, what happens when one of those "converts" goes to a real legacy ETPro-like server? Then they complain about how horrible that server is and how it doesn’t feel anything like the legacy server they just played on. I think this is a can of worms that needs to stay closed. Now you’ve got two servers who call themselves "legacy - ETPro-like comp feeling", yet have completely different look and feel. I think it diminishes the legacy brand as a competitive mod a bit to "dumb it down" to feel like <insert_random_modname_here> pub "fun" thing.

PS. I want to clarify one thing I’ve written in the previous post:

Dragonji wrote:

There’s simply too much crap implemented already and more will come soon.

I just took most of the ideas above as a 'work-in-progress’, that’s why I wrote already.
Offensive wasn’t intended, so I’m really sorry if anyone got hurt with the above.

You do understand that your configuration argument does not really float as with etpro you can totally go overboard and make the game feel like the most horrible jaymod server in the universe. Configuration standards evolve and it will take a while but at some point most of the server user pretty much the same config (count out the few odd balls here and there). That is how it was and most likely that is how it will be in any game that provides a decent amount of configuration freedom.

Btw we are still a lot lighter than etpro. Don’t mix the modifications we have made to the engine with the modifications we have made to the mod.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Dragonji about 6 years ago

Jacker wrote:

with etpro you can totally go overboard and make the game feel like the most horrible jaymod server in the universe. Configuration standards evolve and it will take a while but at some point most of the server user pretty much the same config (count out the few odd balls here and there). That is how it was and most likely that is how it will be in any game that provides a decent amount of configuration freedom.

Going through all the server-side cvars of ETPro I wouldn’t say it is possible to configure ETPro to match Jaymod standards in gameplay aspect (but I do not count spam/nade spam/whatever to gameplay). It is possible not everything is documented though. If Lua is what you are talking about then I have to agree, it is possible to transform ETPro to Jaymod using Lua.

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Spyhawk about 6 years ago

Ok guys,

So it is still unclear to me if Legacy mod will take the "pro" or "light and fun" path (if this distinction makes any relevant difference).
Maybe it is a good idea to start with a short and precise description of what could be Legacy mod?

For example, NoQuarter could be "extra weapons, extra class skills, extra features" with a focus on "extra fun".

What about Legacy? Probably something like "Light, simple and flexible"? What should be the main focus? For example, a focus on "better teamplay" would focus on implementing all features and improvements that encourage players to work together (such as construction sharing XP, or the fieldops "aura" with increased stamina of NQ). As a counter example, a "Jack the Ripper" award simply encourage player to make the most knife kills, without really cooperating with other players. (those are only example - I believe construction sharing is a must do, not sure about the aura thing).

Any ideas or comments about this?

Also, as a starter we could review the various existing features and improvements (in various mod changelog) and list the little one that improve the game without changing significantly the gameplay but that are still useful (for example, the under water breathing bar which is a nice improvement in the NQ client).

RE: Where to? ... requests, ideas and all about mod features ... - Added by Harlekin about 6 years ago

How about free look for wounded players even when team medic is near by. I know the key idea of how it is now is to see that a medic is on the way (or next to you even if he don’t care) but it blocks eg possibility to watch for enemy spawntime if you are near to enemy spawn. Maybe "use" key to unlock the view on your own team medic for this respawn/wounding time.

Where to? If you get the feeling and features of EtPro it can replace EtPro. It does not matter if legacy got more features as EtPro no one needs to activate them.

NQ/EtPub features i like:
Revive without teamkill ← i like it, even if it is sometimes harder as the target ist mostly still moving
possibility to disable adrenaline without dissable level 4 medic (we use a simple script on our etpro server to prevent players using it)
Drop Ammo clips to share ammo.
construction sharing XP ← good for pubs to have teamplay benefit in xp for each involved engi (done)
kick open doors is fun but then silent doors should open slow
under water breathing bar ← hmm nice but not the most important (done)

1 2 3 4 (1-25/92)