Feature #887

Add new skill levels and expand military ranks like NQ Mod

Added by sadsfae almost 3 years ago. Updated 12 months ago.

Status:Invalid% Done:

100%

Priority:Low
Assignee:-
Category:General
Target version:2.76
OS: Arch:

Description

In No Quarter they’ve expanded the military ranks to add a few more NCO ranks and officer ranks up to General of the Army (5-star general).
Additionally, skills are expanded to 7skills, 9 levels per skill or whatever the development team thinks is appropriate

This would greatly expand the progression playtime of the game.
I’d like to submit an RFE to do the same, or similiar.

e.g.

http://shitstorm.org/noquarter/wiki/index.php?title=Additions_and_Features#Ranks


Related issues

Related to ET: Legacy Development - Feature #403: Add bayesian skill rating Fixed 18.11.2013
Related to ET: Legacy Development - Feature #1062: First Aid and Battle Sense skill lvl 1 New 02.11.2017

History

#1 Updated by Dragonji almost 3 years ago

Why do you want to turn Legacy into NQ while NQ is all the time available for everyone?

#2 Updated by sadsfae almost 3 years ago

Dragonji wrote:

Why do you want to turn Legacy into NQ while NQ is all the time available for everyone?

Expanded ranks really shouldn’t be an NQ thing, it’s a core improvement to the game not a heavy modification, it’s like an expansion that adds longevity
Note I’m not suggesting any of the other NQ features, as people can install the mod if they want that:

e.g.
1) Player Kick attack
2) jp_insanity (cams, etc)
3) Venom

More importantly you’re forced to run the 32bit server binaries and 32bit client if you wanted to use NQ, there’s no reason simple core game enhancement shouldn’t be a valid RFE from my perspective.

#3 Updated by Spyhawk almost 3 years ago

sadsfae wrote:

Expanded ranks really shouldn’t be an NQ thing, it’s a core improvement to the game not a heavy modification, it’s like an expansion that adds longevity

Are you suggesting to add ranks, or skill levels (or both)? Because we surely won’t add additional "fun" levels, and won’t change the gameplay significantly either. The downside of adding too many new skill levels (such as done in NQ) is that the mod is then tied even more to XP save, which is, well, bad.

Also, note that ranks are somewhat useless as they are tied to XP. I thought about linking them to the rating system instead (#403), so people with high rank would indeed be good team players, and ranks would go up or down according to their current rating.

#4 Updated by sadsfae almost 3 years ago

Spyhawk wrote:

sadsfae wrote:

Expanded ranks really shouldn’t be an NQ thing, it’s a core improvement to the game not a heavy modification, it’s like an expansion that adds longevity

Are you suggesting to add ranks, or skill levels (or both)? Because we surely won’t add additional "fun" levels, and won’t change the gameplay significantly either. The downside of adding too many new skill levels (such as done in NQ) is that the mod is then tied even more to XP save, which is, well, bad.

Also, note that ranks are somewhat useless as they are tied to XP. I thought about linking them to the rating system instead (#403), so people with high rank would indeed be good team players, and ranks would go up or down according to their current rating.

I’m speaking more about expanding skill levels, that does seem to be mostly tied to in-game ranks. The ZXPSave LUA works ok for vanilla ET:L XP save but probably needs to be updated.
What are you thoughts about folding something like ZXPSave lua into core ET:L (that way you control the state of xpsave and anything depending on it)?

https://github.com/Zelly/ZellyLuas

#5 Updated by Spyhawk almost 3 years ago

sadsfae wrote:

I’m speaking more about expanding skill levels, that does seem to be mostly tied to in-game ranks.

It is the opposite. Earning XPs gives skill levels, and skill levels give ranks. Which skill levels would you like to see?

My only opinion on XP save is that it is a terrible idea (see #403). The original ET gameplay has not been designed to earn permanent skill levels; XP simply debalance the game.

#6 Updated by sadsfae almost 3 years ago

Spyhawk wrote:

sadsfae wrote:

I’m speaking more about expanding skill levels, that does seem to be mostly tied to in-game ranks.

It is the opposite. Earning XPs gives skill levels, and skill levels give ranks. Which skill levels would you like to see?

It’d be awesome to expand upon the battle sense, light weapons, heavy weapons skills from level 4 max to level 8 or 9 and consequently the class-specific ones as well - first aid, engineering, covert ops and signal:
http://strategywiki.org/wiki/Wolfenstein:_Enemy_Territory/Ranking#Experience

My only opinion on XP save is that it is a terrible idea (see #403). The original ET gameplay has not been designed to earn permanent skill levels; XP simply debalance the game.

I see what you mean. For casual players I think it’s a good thing as it retains your progress but I can also see the counter of that for something like campaign where you’d want to have progress start and end tied to the campaign progress. I understand if not including XP save under the et:legacy umbrella is desired from a purity perspective however, but I’m a fan of it. It also tends to be preferred by most players I’ve noticed from running servers. I do not retain bot experience however, and reset that every 45minutes or so.

#7 Updated by Spyhawk almost 3 years ago

sadsfae wrote:

It’d be awesome to expand upon the battle sense, light weapons, heavy weapons skills from level 4 max to level 8 or 9 and consequently the class-specific ones as well - first aid, engineering, covert ops and signal

Again, which new skill levels would you like to see?

I see what you mean.

Note that it is not only about retaining XPs. As an example, adrenaline (medic lvl 4) is a powerful skill, but can be only reached when the medic has actually done a good revive job (in original ET gameplay, maybe the last map of the 3 maps in the campaign cycle). However, XP save allows players to play "good medic" a two or three maps then play "rambo medic" with adrenaline for all the following maps, for basically an unlimited time. This change the gameplay in an annoying manner for all, including casual players. To counter this, some mods even go to implement some "adrenaline restriction" or "lowered healing rate" cvars... while the only reason these issues exist in the first place is because of XP save.

Many players are too attached to XPs, while not focusing on the game. This isn’t a WoW mod with characters levels that have to be maxed in order to win.

#8 Updated by sadsfae almost 3 years ago

Spyhawk wrote:

sadsfae wrote:

It’d be awesome to expand upon the battle sense, light weapons, heavy weapons skills from level 4 max to level 8 or 9 and consequently the class-specific ones as well - first aid, engineering, covert ops and signal

Again, which new skill levels would you like to see?

To be more specific, an expansion cap increased on all of them. Let’s drill down into heavy weapons skill for example, soldier with MG42 is very underpowered (small ammo cap, heavy weapons restrictions) yet the suppressive fire is a very important element to the game. Further ranks of heavy weapons skill can accommodate carrying a greater amount of ammo (let’s say max of 500 rds, up from 150 that you start with) and an incremental decrease in MG overheating for heavy weapons, or an incremental increase in reload time (presumably from having more experience operating it at a higher level).

To lay out exact increments:

(current)
battle sense = level 4
light weapons = level 4
heavy weapons = level 4

(proposed)
battle sense = level 10
light weapons = level 10
heavy weapons = level 10

I see what you mean.

Note that it is not only about retaining XPs. As an example, adrenaline (medic lvl 4) is a powerful skill, but can be only reached when the medic has actually done a good revive job (in original ET gameplay, maybe the last map of the 3 maps in the campaign cycle). However, XP save allows players to play "good medic" a two or three maps then play "rambo medic" with adrenaline for all the following maps, for basically an unlimited time. This change the gameplay in an annoying manner for all, including casual players. To counter this, some mods even go to implement some "adrenaline restriction" or "lowered healing rate" cvars... while the only reason these issues exist in the first place is because of XP save.

Many players are too attached to XPs, while not focusing on the game. This isn’t a WoW mod with characters levels that have to be maxed in order to win.

Nobody wants that, and it’s certainly not what I’m suggesting - sounds like you just really just dislike the idea of XP save

#9 Updated by Spyhawk almost 3 years ago

  • Priority changed from Normal to Low

Yes, I’m not a very big fan of XP Save. Some people would argue that MG42 is enough powerful already; it’s by far not a bad weapon if used defensively...

For implementing any additional skill levels, we’d need detailed ideas and discuss them, to see if they fit in the purpose of the legacy mod (adding improvements while staying close to the original gameplay).

So far, this ticket hasn’t gone beyond the "let’s add 9 or 10 skill levels per skill category like NQ does"without addressing any of the content in detail. Nor does it address the concern about being tied even more to XP save...

#10 Updated by Spyhawk almost 3 years ago

  • Subject changed from Expand Military Ranks like NQ Mod to Add new skill level and Expand Military Ranks like NQ Mod

#11 Updated by Spyhawk almost 3 years ago

  • Subject changed from Add new skill level and Expand Military Ranks like NQ Mod to Add new skill levels and expand military ranks like NQ Mod

#12 Updated by Dragonji almost 3 years ago

Spyhawk wrote:

So far, this ticket hasn’t gone beyond the "let’s add 9 or 10 skill levels per skill category like NQ does"without addressing any of the content in detail. Nor does it address the concern about being tied even more to XP save...

It’s more like "Let’s add 9 or 10 skill levels per category for the sake of having more numbers. What additional bonuses should it give to the player? Just copy NQ //with all of its problems// and add something".

#13 Updated by sadsfae almost 3 years ago

Dragonji wrote:

Spyhawk wrote:

So far, this ticket hasn’t gone beyond the "let’s add 9 or 10 skill levels per skill category like NQ does"without addressing any of the content in detail. Nor does it address the concern about being tied even more to XP save...

It’s more like "Let’s add 9 or 10 skill levels per category for the sake of having more numbers. What additional bonuses should it give to the player? Just copy NQ //with all of its problems// and add something".

Ok, understood. I am certainly not suggesting we try and inherit NQ into et:legacy but I really like the idea of expanding existing skills. It’s on me to provide more detailed information here, perhaps mark this as stalled until I (and hopefully others interested in similiar improvements) can suggest some more details you require. Thanks for entertaining this thus far.

#14 Updated by IR4T4 almost 3 years ago

#15 Updated by IR4T4 almost 3 years ago

  • Target version changed from 2.77 to ALL

#16 Updated by IR4T4 12 months ago

  • Status changed from New to Invalid
  • Target version changed from ALL to 2.76
  • % Done changed from 0 to 100

The new skill system has been implemented and we won’t add more skill levels to the game → closed.

#17 Updated by keMoN 11 months ago

  • Related to Feature #1062: First Aid and Battle Sense skill lvl 1 added

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